Why does BFME have stun/net spells? (Also: RQ)

K

Konradt

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Dec 15, 2010
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I don't know if it's just me, but they seem to take the fun out of the game.

These days I witnessed my Shagrat lvl3-5 get killed in less than a second by spells. Every time I fight a non-pro player I have to run away with my heroes because they inevitably get stunned or netted or whatever, so my attention is diverted from the actual fighting and occupied by keeping my heroes alive. Finally, heroes are quite important - without heroes our team is lost, even if the enemy has only one base left. So I don't want to lose them -> I need to pay attention to aimers and also aim myself. So there's no joy in fighting left. Meh



P.s.

Among the custom maps on Bnet that feature large armies, Tolkien ones are typically characterized with importance of heroes. I've been thinking of modifying some BFME or Silmarillion maps and turning them into strategy ones with heroes only for flavor. I wanted to change some colors and to make separate spawns for ranged/melee/elites in bases. All of the good ones were locked, though. And adding models and so on so that people wouldn't quit was sorta impossible.

So, could I get this BFME unlocked pls? I realize, of course, that there's no chance of me getting 3.1 or the latest, so probably you could host or e-mail me an old version of this BFME (<2.5 or whatever you are ok with) that is unlocked. I hoped I could turn it into something like the maps played on http://www.diplomunion.com/forum.php.
 
Yep, watching a-move battles is funnier i guess

honestly there isnt that much to do in lotr maps like bfme if there arnt 'hero wars' so to speak and it would deacrease the skill level even more (wich isnt high at all in the first place, just move ur unit in to battle and use spells on heroes) becouse the actual apm needed to control ur army in a battle is very very low..

And you can play wotta if you want what you speak off i guess..

Oh and heroes dont die in less then a second if you heal him / has allies who heals you...
 
You have a good point and I totally agree.  Stuns / hero nets make the game 95% about your heroes and take away from the tactics, strategy, and army micro.  Not to mention they are completely unrealistic in the sense of an actual large scale sword age conflict.  I don't see much of a solution though.  Try using Hold Position (Hotkey H) on your heroes in an area where they are protected by friendly troops.
 
Jonas said:
Oh and heroes dont die in less then a second if you heal him / has allies who heals you...
Click to expand...

Jonas I have seen heros die in 1 sec. If your hero is lvl 2 and all the naz are like lvl 4 and they use there spells all on tht one hero he dies in one sec.
 
deadman27 said:
Jonas said:
Oh and heroes dont die in less then a second if you heal him / has allies who heals you...
Click to expand...

Jonas I have seen heros die in 1 sec. If your hero is lvl 2 and all the naz are like lvl 4 and they use there spells all on tht one hero he dies in one sec.
Click to expand...

... yet you count with no teamheal and why the fuck would an hero be level 2 when naz is level 4, that senario dosnt exist in a real game, maybe in a bad pub game but i talk about real games here with good players...

first of he would be same level as naz or 1 level above if it was a real game second of all he will get teamheals, and third of all no one that ever played naz has been able to cast all there spells in 1 sec infact most people takes over 7-8second to cast all there spells as naz in priv it migth be some seconds faster but still its not even close to 1 second...
 
well jonas you can time it so all hit on during 1 second - (split the naz so they don't block each others, then run from a distance meanwhile you nuke). Removing stuns/net only makes heroes even more imba, cus they're so much harder to counter then if you can't stun em. BFME is balanced after privs and not pubs, in privs ppl teamheal each others, it's a lot harder to nuke as a single race, because as soon you're going to nuke a hero, another enemy aims one of your heroes, meanwhile the one you nuke heals himself. In privs you work together, which isn't as common in pubs. And balancing it after pubs wudn't work, cus that wud make the privs very tarded with a good side very op. You can ofc "steal" an old BFME version and change it, but even though you're allowed, as every custom map is public - no owner rights -, it's tarded as imo you ruin it for those who likes the map, as you might end up ruining the reputation of the map. If you really want to make  a lotr map where you won't focus on heroes but instead on a-attack, then make it from the scratch. Otherwise I suggest you to play wotta it's more based on the skill level for pubs, you cud also try ROE - Ride of Eorl - a fun map, where there's no stuns, and heroes are very weak in damage/hp compared to BFME, they only work as army boosters.
 
just because you cant handle it doesnt mean others cant aswell - there are alot people who can cast spells and stil use their army with more then just a-move
another things is also that you dont get nuked in 1sec its more like you just need 5-10seconds to realize you get attacked - thats again your fault and not the game
also as said before removing stun/net spells wouldnt stop aiming and make heroes even more important - just think about it
a single stun vs a unit even if its a stronger like a troll or ent wont decide a battle however 2additional waves and slams of heroes who didnt die cause you cant stun them at all can rip an army apart
as last thing also nukes dont have much to do with stuns/net - take naz for example he nukes you with 9 spells - 6 of those are pure ae spells 1 is a heal/non stun dmg and only 2 are single target stun, means he can nuke you even without stun
and that applies to most races who capable of nuking

so improve yourself before you say something like remove stuns please
 
I think that stuns are ok, but I would say that Dmg of all spells should be like 10% lower (heals aswell)
But im not sure if it helps at all, but it could make army a bit more important.
But stuns are definetly needed.
 
hell, lets do everything to make the game play by itself


infact lets just make it an cinematic so you dont have to do anything...

Among the custom maps on Bnet that feature large armies, Tolkien ones are typically characterized with importance of heroes. I've been thinking of modifying some BFME or Silmarillion maps and turning them into strategy ones with heroes only for flavor. I wanted to change some colors and to make separate spawns for ranged/melee/elites in bases. All of the good ones were locked, though. And adding models and so on so that people wouldn't quit was sorta impossible.

So, could I get this BFME unlocked pls? I realize, of course, that there's no chance of me getting 3.1 or the latest, so probably you could host or e-mail me an old version of this BFME (<2.5 or whatever you are ok with) that is unlocked. I hoped I could turn it into something like the maps played on
Click to expand...

thats infact impossible unless you want to extend the map and rechange the terrain alot, adding dwarves and stuff, since there is way to little chokes and important position/macro to make the game a strategic heavy game, you could possible make some other bigger lotr maps that but not bfme without major overhul

and besides if heroes is not going to have a real effect, just make demis then??...
 
the good old priv vs pub argument.

with all due respect towards the person. pubs, in this case you, are a total noob.
you get stunned, oke, you should know your about to get stunned because a stunning hero is running towards your heros. run away, stun him, block with units. either of those will counter it. And stuns dont kill most stun/web spells hardly deal any damage, they arent the spell that kill your hero. stuns/webs are used to surround you so units kill you. What infact kills your are the waves/mana burns/coil/holy light/nova's

And no, there is no way we would give away an unprotected version even a 4 year old one to anyone with such ideas of game balance. if you dont like heros the way they are in BFME go play TSA or WOTTA. or any of the crappy wc3lore maps.
 
Some of the posts here seem irritated, so I need to make it clear: I'm not hating the current BFME, I'm trying to point out how it differs from what I expected. So with all due respect, I mean no ill. Furthermore, I don't want to change what already is, I want to start a whole new project from some previous point in the development of this map. First the gameplay considerations and then why I think it won't harm you to let me have some long-gone copy lying around.

From BFME i expected a big fighting with armies and such. And I got something different, and that was to be, in a way, expected. Notwithstanding the difference in gameplays, BFME is a good map and I'm not saying it's unbalanced or lame. All these versions show it. I just expected a different experience from the map and I've thought about what it was.

1. To make a map like this require more tactical effort I figured the best thing to do is introducing rock-scissors-paper dmg types, as well as diff speeds and defense for infantry/cavalry/etc. So in order to do more dmg to the enemy, players will have to pay attention to formation and turns, which is what tactics is about.

2. To make it require more strategic effort I'd make scouting work in a different way and reduce the overall speed of armies. This way people will need to pay attention to where the armies were, are and will be going, which is what strategy is about.

3. To make it require more logistical effort, I'd improve heal and mana regeneration in bases and reduce it for units. Also make units more reliant on mana-abilities (e.g. mana counting as archers' arrows or trolls' stamina). This way army efficiency will depend on distance to bases and players will need to think of 'supplying' the armies, which is what logistics is about.


@ Jonas
If you have those three it will not be a cinematic. The difference will be that people will be thinking less about reflexes and more about problems like in the military, about moving forces and so on. That would probably increase the apm merely in controlling troops. Of course you have low apm now - all the units are too similar. Except for pikemen beating cavalry, in the fluidity of the battle it all comes down to charging your force into the enemy plus the hero control.

And also, I was thinking of writing triggers that promote demis into heroes if the player loses original heroes. Like if Rohan loses 1 hero Hama will become a hero unit. Also, having 'John Doe' heroes, which get replaced once one is killed - e.g. [orc name1] (Lvl X Captain of Mordor) gets killed and you get [orc name2] (Lvl 1 Captain of Mordor) with your next spawn, who you can proceed with leveling. So that bad playing at start will play less role in deciding the rest of the game.


@Turin
Well, can't lie about it - my micro and reflexes are bad  ;D
Which is why I suck at DotA and melee, too.
And it's not really ideas about game balance, it's more about replacing the skeleton and organs of this map with some which reward a different type of gameplay.
Also @Ele,
So, uh, you won't give any version? Not even a really old one? :(


I must clarify that it WILL NOT be a BFME this thing I'll make. I can do without things like spells. I will change the name to BFME Tactics or TFME and make it clear that this is an entirely different thing from the well-balanced BFME already in Bnet. It will be a new thing with a new gameplay. Hence, there will be no confusion about my ideas being conflicting with your BFME and the current map will be fine. It is an entirely different game I'll try to construct. And, although I'll retain whatever graphics and units and terrain you allow me to retain, it will be something completely different in regard to the mechanics. As I said, I'll basically make a new map with the first 3 points in mind. I will also go through all the triggers and units and make Gondor grey and Khand red, so it's patent. And probably Rohan orange. And remove castles. And make archers' projectile type artillery. So that's Tactics of Middle-Earth. Also, the credits will be anything you say (since I'll be owing you people so much :D) and if I start making it from scratch I'll never get it finished. And, if it becomes successful, you will become more popular, due to being on the credits and clan interest is likely to improve. So I'll really make sure there's no confusion or anything.


 
many of the people that dont have the proper skill set to play real BFME have tried to make a map like you are discribing. all failed because they are uber boring. your basicly discribing WOTTA i say to give that a try.

and if you think that its just Amove ur army and use heros. your clearly wrong. its all about positioning. your archers/infantry/cavelry/ retreat damaged units. use demis. effectively (which most people fail at). ah well we've had this discusion many many times in the past years.

bottum line; your not getting an old BFME ver. make your own, we've put lots of sweat and tears in this map, not just nwg and me but this entire (old) community to make the quality map it is now. i would not like it to be ripped off its soul. even if you name it diffrently and use other game mechenics it would still be BFME to the mass. which is a NO GO.

have a good day.
 
Well, with ur plans, u will need a way larger tarrain than we have in BFME, something like AW:LR mby, or DaoW. Which means u have to do the tarrain from scratch. U can't copy the current tarrain (or an earlier one for that matter) and just make it larger. I won't say that I'm an expert in map-editing, cause I'm not. I actually fail at it. But I believe it is as I have said. Correct me if I'm wrong
 
1. To make a map like this require more tactical effort I figured the best thing to do is introducing rock-scissors-paper dmg types, as well as diff speeds and defense for infantry/cavalry/etc. So in order to do more dmg to the enemy, players will have to pay attention to formation and turns, which is what tactics is about.

2. To make it require more strategic effort I'd make scouting work in a different way and reduce the overall speed of armies. This way people will need to pay attention to where the armies were, are and will be going, which is what strategy is about.

i just wanna mention that this 2 parts are in bfme? if you take a look at dmg/armor types you will see that they are alot different from melee
the map you are trying to do reminds me of total war games (like rome total war etc if that tells you something) it can be fun if you enjoy slower games where you build up and the see big armys fight - however bfme and most warcraft3 maps arent like that as you know and the reason is, as tard turin said that they are to boring for (most) warcraft3 player
those who enjoy them will play a different game from the beginning like those total war games
 
@1. A lot pubs don't realise this, but it is already based on damage types. Pike for example does around 200%? damage to riders (dunno if it's nerfed in newer vers) piercing does 180% to other types. Siege does extra dmg to all armor types expect heroes, where it's 50%. Magic dmg does #120 to hero armor (which is a lot has every other dmg  type does under 100%) it's exactly a quite big system. Just hold your mouse over the dmg/armor types and you'll see.

Reducing the overall speed of armies, won't make it more strategic, it'll make it a camp war, where you get punished for attacking. as ppl can set up a defense before you even get to attack - because it's very easy to scout. Scoting is already a big part of BFME, mayb not that much pubs games, but in privs it is.  making units worse the longer they get away from base = again you will make it one big camp war, where you lose if you attack. It'll be very boring, and by taking an old BFME map, + calling it something like TMFE (which reminds of BFME) will tend to make ppl think of it as BFME.

I believe I got some old unprotected BFME's in my map folder, but mate I don't think you should use an old version of BFME, if you really want to make such a map, then make it from the scratch. what you're going to do has nothing to do with the BFME, and the terrain doesn't fit in at all.
 
Meh, I guess kuel is right and Wc3 isn't the game for such maps in the first place.

But then again the Total War don't have heroes like Sauron that fight afaik.

I don't know if making it bigger is a good idea. Wc3 is pathetic at handling lots of units. Or controlling them for that matter. Controlling armies in Alt Future is a nightmare. A headache. If anything I'll probably make it smaller, so that game numbers approach real life numbers.
Also, I can remove the incentive for camping by reducing resource income per size of armies. That is, bigger armies mean less lumber/gold. So people will either want to use the armies, in which case they will atk, or will disband them, in which case they will be undefended. And so everyone goes to the field. But then 3 teams will be better in order to allow autobalancing if one team is too strong.
 
wc3 can handle a fair amount of units as long as u cant see alot of them in teh same screen cuz they it bugs. besides that you just need clean triggers. and none laggin spells (the ones that don deform terrain, or create a heal of alot effects.) and there is no way to prevent people camping. they will always camp.. campers just dont have skill they are slow in the head.

and srsly.. if you think 3 teams is easier to balance you lost it.. 3 teams is close to IMPOSIBLE to balance. 4 teams is easier then 3.
 
The games you are describing takes far too long for a custom game on wc3. a game like that sounds like it would take the very least 3 hours with people who knew anything...... Warcraft 3 doesn't fit with such a ''grand strategy game''  Try ride of eorl or War of the third age, there's tons of maps that dont really favour heroes but rather have them act as leaders. they never took off cause people thought they were boring and slow, which they are. (or incredibly unbalanced)
edit: also having more than 2 teams is a horrible idea, that isn't balance. It's a ''cop out'' to prevent having to balance, person X says team 1 is totally imba and rolls any race easy the default strategy will then be team 2 and 3 must double team 1 to even have a chance of coming to the climax of the game (winning it)
 
BFME is designed to last 20-30 min, excluding MT camping.
longer then that. the amount of ppl willing to play will drop drasticly.

because srsly 3 hours for 1 game... hell i only do that when im fucked up bored.
 
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